#27 What is the Art and Science of PEX manifold locations? (with Max Rohr)

Our Ask Caleffi team phones a friend to talk about PEX connections and manifolds.  Where do you locate a manifold?  Which fitting systems work with which types of PEX?  What is the difference between plumbing PEX and heating PEX?  

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Transcript

0:00
[Music]
0:04
welcome to ask caleffi the podcast that
0:07
dives into real life problems that
0:09
plumbing and hvac technicians face in
0:11
the field we're your hosts from the
0:13
caleffi tech support team i'm greg tubbs
0:16
and i'm dan ferkus welcome we look
0:18
forward to sharing some stories from our
0:20
tech calls and using our background and
0:22
expertise to make your days a little
0:24
easier
0:25
[Music]
0:29
hey there welcome back here we are uh
0:32
returning guest
0:34
max rohr
0:37
yeah thanks for coming back max yeah
0:40
absolutely so today we're gonna talk
0:42
about more so on the fitting side of of
0:44
pex piping the common fitting types and
0:48
we'll get into a few other little side
0:49
topics along with that yeah it was great
0:52
having you on last time we talked about
0:54
the different types of pecs that's out
0:55
there and kind of the application so
0:58
we're looking forward to getting a
0:59
little deeper into you know how do you
1:01
tie that system together and what do you
1:03
do with it after you get that pex
1:04
installed sure so yeah we can kind of
1:07
take it from you know pex is in and now
1:09
i need to hook it up to something how do
1:11
i do it so
1:13
if we're talking about a pex a type you
1:16
can expand that because we talked about
1:17
in the last episode that with the
1:20
way that you extrude x8 pipe it allows
1:23
you to
1:25
expand it
1:26
up and over the barb of the fitting to
1:28
repair kink things like that so the way
1:31
to do that with the pex a
1:33
one is an f 1960
1:36
fitting designation so that's going to
1:37
be on the fitting and
1:39
you know open or has been doing that
1:41
forever that's a fitting that they
1:43
brought to market a long time ago with
1:45
that single barb that you
1:47
expand with the ring and then it comes
1:50
back down just the memory of the pipe
1:52
forms the steel and then another one
1:54
that's on the market is a compression
1:56
sleeve style so this is something that
1:58
real and
2:00
others there are some other generic now
2:02
versions of that have done in the
2:04
radiant heating market for a long time
2:06
that you've got a brass or a polymer
2:08
compression sleeve that you actually
2:10
pull with the specialized tool up and
2:12
over a barb that forms the seal
2:14
immediately there too so those are kind
2:16
of the
2:17
pex a specific
2:20
style
2:21
and then anything a b or c pex a b or c
2:25
can be crimped onto like we offer an f
2:28
1807 fitting system so this is just a
2:30
standard metal crimp ring over a barb
2:33
simple available everywhere goes on the
2:36
inside diameter of the pipe there's no
2:38
expansion involved it just slides right
2:41
in there
2:42
so you've got a bunch of different
2:43
options there and then if you come
2:45
across the job site you can't find any
2:48
information about the pipe you don't
2:49
know what it is when in doubt use that
2:51
crimp fitting and not the cold expansion
2:53
so you don't develop a crack or
2:55
something like that in a pipe that
2:56
wasn't meant to be expanded right
2:58
because you can use that
3:00
that fitting with the crimp ring on any
3:02
of the pecs a b or c pipe it's just the
3:04
expansion that you have to use with the
3:06
a
3:07
what i always liked about the expansion
3:09
fittings is you kind of maintain that
3:11
same inside diameter you're not really
3:13
creating any any type of restriction in
3:15
the but not you don't really create a
3:17
restriction but you're not narrowing the
3:18
diameter of that pipe at all
3:20
yeah it's a good point that any fitting
3:23
regardless for pecs is going to have a
3:25
little bit of a slow penalty compared to
3:27
just the straight length of text so even
3:30
the text a style fittings that you have
3:33
to expand the pipe over it you can look
3:35
down the center of it and it looks like
3:37
it's about the same diameter but just a
3:39
little bit of turbulence of the lip of
3:41
the fitting will give you a little bit
3:42
of a flow penalty there but
3:45
it is it is helpful to have that nice
3:48
clear flow pattern through there and um
3:51
they do that on purpose so it's a much
3:54
better flow characteristic than uh the
3:57
b and c crimp
3:59
fittings going the inside diameter so
4:01
you're taking the small diameter of the
4:03
pecs and going smaller to go into the
4:05
fitting it would take a bunch of these
4:07
fittings to make a realistic difference
4:09
in a radiant heating system or something
4:11
like that it's actually probably a
4:12
bigger deal for plumbing
4:14
that you could have the furthest fixture
4:16
away from the mechanical room uh be a
4:18
little bit
4:19
have more of that flow penalty but with
4:21
the radiant system either one is going
4:24
to be fine but those are kind of the
4:25
differences and definitely crimp if you
4:28
if you're not sure right well and the
4:30
advantage with our products is we make
4:32
tail pieces that are pex expansion or
4:34
pex crimp so
4:36
you know it doesn't matter whether it's
4:38
a
4:39
hydronic or plumbing application with
4:41
any of our products almost
4:43
almost all of our products we have that
4:46
pex option to be able to to work with
4:48
either either any type of pex yeah we
4:50
did that for a reason so you could you
4:52
know you could mix and match fittings or
4:55
if you're you're just all you're doing
4:57
is pecks then you've got something to
4:59
connect on both ends right right yeah
5:01
we've got a lot of options one way to do
5:03
that if you wanted to is you could buy
5:04
let's say it's a pressure reducing valve
5:06
you could buy one
5:08
with
5:08
pressed tail pieces and another with the
5:10
type of pecs the occult expansion tail
5:12
pieces that you want and you can mix and
5:14
match those so you could have two houses
5:16
right next door to each other two
5:17
different job sites you start with the
5:20
press and then on the other side of the
5:22
prv you're moving to text you know if
5:24
your jurisdiction allows it or whatever
5:27
and then back to your transition piece
5:28
instead of buying a separate expensive
5:31
press to pex connection from one of the
5:34
the pex people you can just do it right
5:35
at the valve which is a nice feature to
5:38
be able to mix and match like that right
5:40
and i know we talked a lot about the
5:41
radiant heating side with pex but boy we
5:45
see a lot of pecs used on the plumbing
5:46
side as well and
5:48
um even on the plumbing side you have
5:50
the the three types the pecs a b and c
5:52
but there you might not have that oxygen
5:54
barrier is that correct yeah the um you
5:57
could in some cases
5:59
you know an oxygen barrier pipe will be
6:01
qualified for a plumbing application but
6:03
it's going to be more expensive so
6:04
usually with plumbing pipes they're not
6:06
looking to keep the oxygen out because
6:08
you're getting oxygenated water from the
6:10
utility
6:12
what you're doing is in some cases just
6:14
looking for better uv protection because
6:16
it might be exposed to sun for longer if
6:18
you're framing a building or something
6:20
it might be
6:21
in sunlight
6:22
longer than it would be if you just
6:23
poured concrete on top of it so
6:25
different co-extrusion in some cases
6:27
different outer jacket for the pipe to
6:29
give it
6:30
more
6:31
sun protection
6:32
specialties instead of oxygen barrier
6:35
specialties okay interesting i guess i
6:37
didn't even think about that the uv
6:39
barrier with plumbing pipe would be more
6:42
important because it is going to be more
6:44
exposed absolutely yeah so depending on
6:46
how the different trades going up and
6:48
when it's you know completely covered
6:51
could be a much longer time frame than
6:52
you would shoot for with uh with
6:54
radiance so getting back to radiant
6:56
getting back to radiance now that we
6:58
jumped all right
7:02
that's okay that's what this is all
7:03
about you gotta get off topic once in a
7:05
while manifolds i mean we get a lot of
7:07
questions about manifolds because that's
7:10
we make a high quality brass manifold
7:13
that this pex ties into
7:15
xa yeah any event any of it
7:20
location of the manifold i think that's
7:22
probably one of the
7:23
more simplistic questions that we get
7:26
but
7:26
i mean our manifolds are designed to be
7:29
inverted they can be installed most any
7:31
place but
7:32
definitely have to be installed
7:34
inside indoors
7:37
or in an enclosure yeah we're near where
7:39
the pex terminates either whether it's
7:41
coming out of a concrete floor or out of
7:43
a ceiling right
7:45
so i guess you know you that's probably
7:47
one of the advantages we talked about
7:49
the
7:50
you know how
7:51
flexible a radiant heating system is you
7:54
know or how you can customize that
7:56
system to fit your application i mean i
7:59
i've seen manifolds located almost
8:01
anywhere in a home yeah and they're not
8:03
always the most service friendly are
8:05
they yeah
8:07
not necessarily
8:10
they can be if
8:12
you think about it right up front right
8:15
so i mean it's nice
8:17
if you have the ability to keep that
8:20
thing
8:21
at service height now everybody's height
8:23
is different right but maybe if we keep
8:25
it three or four feet off the floor up
8:27
in a cabinet
8:28
or just on the wall in the mechanical
8:31
room
8:32
i think that's probably best so you're
8:35
not having to
8:36
you also have more wiggle room there
8:38
right you know but you know
8:40
you you're right but you also think
8:42
about the flexibility of iranian system
8:44
i mean i've seen them in second floor
8:46
closets and the advantage to that is you
8:48
can terminate your pecs up into that
8:50
closet you can mount your manifold and
8:52
just run two pex feeders up to that sure
8:55
up to that manifold so it kind of allows
8:57
you to customize that to fit almost any
9:00
application
9:01
i mean max you've probably seen them
9:03
anywhere
9:04
all over the place i think that
9:06
from a troubleshooting standpoint uh the
9:08
best way to do it is to get a bucket and
9:10
sit on it in the mechanical room and
9:12
then mount it our feet off the ground so
9:14
it's right in front of your hands so you
9:16
can do all the balancing and
9:18
everything's right in front of you
9:20
everything's in the mechanical room
9:21
however let's say you're working on a
9:23
huge house that is you know ten thousand
9:26
square feet or something like that if
9:28
you put all the manifolds in the
9:29
mechanical room then you have what they
9:31
call a lot of tails um so that's type
9:34
that it takes to just get to the zone
9:36
that you're going to be heating that you
9:38
have to route through the house
9:40
somewhere and if you do that in a way
9:44
that you have all of the zones coming
9:46
back to the manifold that's in the
9:48
mechanical room in a huge house you can
9:50
have a hallway that's always hot that
9:53
wherever all those tails are coming back
9:54
to the mechanical room if one zone is on
9:56
a house the hallways getting warm so
9:58
you can kind of overheat that hallway
10:00
where what you suggested where you just
10:02
take a slightly bigger maybe
10:04
three-quarter one-inch supply line just
10:06
to supply and return through the house
10:08
to a remote manifold and then you can
10:10
break off of that and do all the you
10:12
know half-inch zones from there that can
10:14
be a really good way to go too so
10:16
no perfect way to do it every set of
10:18
plans is going to be different but one
10:20
of the main recommendations if you're
10:22
going to put a manifold in make sure
10:24
that it's a couple feet you know we like
10:26
to be four feet off the ground just so
10:28
you can navigate those pipes into it
10:30
well and if you did have an issue that
10:31
you could cut it and move it down and go
10:33
on from there i think the manifolds that
10:35
are you know two inches off of the
10:36
concrete and it's gonna make a very uh
10:39
hard connection time for yourself so
10:42
that's a good uh planning piece just
10:44
imagine something going wrong
10:46
you need to do something with that pecs
10:48
and you only have two inches off the
10:50
floor
10:50
you're kind of in trouble you got to
10:52
replace it yeah it's bad
10:54
or you get a connector that maybe didn't
10:56
make a good connection and it's leaking
10:59
yeah that's
11:01
it's kind of tough to work on when it's
11:03
that low yeah but boy you talked about
11:05
the flexibility you know being able to
11:07
locate that manifold you know away from
11:09
the mechanical room you think about
11:11
trying to lay the packs for that master
11:13
bedroom zone in that 10 000 square foot
11:15
house and trying to get those tails back
11:17
to the mechanical room it's almost
11:19
impossible i mean you lose so much of
11:21
your
11:22
of your circuit length just getting
11:24
those feeders back to the back to the
11:25
manifold that if you know you're
11:27
throwing that manifold in that zone or
11:30
closer to that zone and running two
11:32
feeders just saved you a lot of packs
11:38
yeah
11:40
and basically
11:41
if you're working with a designer with
11:42
one of the text companies put the
11:44
manifold uh wherever you said that you
11:46
were going to put it
11:47
or it just throws off the whole design
11:49
so if you if you were going to put the
11:51
manifold right in the center of the
11:52
warehouse on the north wall and then
11:55
you install it in the
11:58
southeast corner it's going to throw off
12:00
all those different loop lengths and
12:01
things like that maybe harder to balance
12:03
back out to where you want it to go
12:06
so find a location and then stick with
12:09
it or you're gonna have to buy your pex
12:12
designer uh a sandwich and apologize if
12:14
you have to move it around a few times
12:16
right right yeah it's gonna make
12:18
balancing a lot more difficult but with
12:20
our manifolds you can balance it off i
12:22
mean it may be something that if it's an
12:24
eight port manifold and you have seven
12:27
that are exactly you know
12:29
333 foot long lengths and the last one
12:32
is only 100 to wrap up that building you
12:35
can balance that all out with our
12:37
manifold which is nice but it's not a
12:39
you know it's not like you have to
12:41
throttle a ball valve or do something
12:42
weird to get those those different loops
12:45
to get the same flow rate
12:47
sure yeah that is one of the advantages
12:49
with our manifold you can balance both
12:51
on the supply and return side of that
12:53
manifold so i mean you can really dial
12:55
that that flow in and get it balanced
12:57
nicely
12:59
we have a lot of fittings to attach to
13:01
our manifolds too yes great way to segue
13:04
into the next bullet point here
13:08
we always get a little bit more about
13:09
that yeah
13:10
let's talk about it let's talk more
13:11
about that greg
13:13
how many phone calls do we get about you
13:15
know can i use your your manifold with
13:19
one two three abcd
13:21
the question is always from us
13:24
what is the astm rating on it right
13:28
right yeah absolutely make sure that's
13:30
compatible with our fittings right
13:32
it's got to be eight seven six and then
13:35
you get the question well it says eight
13:37
seven six slash eight seven seven will
13:39
it work
13:41
yeah answer is yes yeah it meets that as
13:44
that astm rating yeah f that f877 is
13:48
going to be a fitting standard so that's
13:50
usually an umbrella standard for kind of
13:52
the performance characteristics for a
13:54
fitting so a fitting may be listed to 87
13:59
plus
14:00
a dimensional standard like an f1960 so
14:03
f1960 also has qualified for f877
14:08
um it just says
14:09
that it has to be this specific shape
14:12
so
14:13
not all fittings have a dimensional
14:15
standard like in 1807 or 1960
14:18
as long as you have f 877 it's
14:20
compatible to use with that f-876 pipes
14:24
to get really into the weeds
14:26
but that just means that it's up to the
14:28
job of a you know radiant uh a plumbing
14:31
application that it's going to hold up
14:33
to the pressures we're expecting there
14:35
right so as long as your pipe meets
14:37
those standards
14:39
um our fittings you know we have
14:40
fittings to go all the way from
14:43
i believe it's three eighths all the way
14:45
up to three quarter you know to attach
14:48
that pex to our manifold and those
14:50
fittings are going to fit inside the
14:52
pecs it's not a pex expansion fitting at
14:54
the manifold it is actually going to go
14:55
inside the pecs and has a collar that
14:57
slides over and compression fit to to
15:00
tighten it together that's right we got
15:02
that we call it the olive the olive yep
15:05
and it's a nice fit it really is yeah
15:07
they'll grab any of those pecs and
15:09
tighten that right up and we get the
15:11
question about pexel pecks will our
15:13
product work with pexel pecks we do have
15:16
a fitting system for that so we offer
15:18
that that 682 fitting that is a standard
15:21
astm 1281. that's going to be our pexel
15:24
pex fitting it's going to work with the
15:26
alumapex right max what's the benefit to
15:29
using pixel packs over standard packs so
15:32
some of the things that um like when my
15:35
dad was doing systems that he liked
15:37
about the textile text is it does have
15:39
some more memory so especially like near
15:41
boiler piping you can make that look
15:42
really nice and you can even use the
15:44
copper bender
15:46
to make the the sweeps instead of using
15:49
fittings so it's a lot easier to wrestle
15:52
with it because it will stay in a shape
15:54
uh compared to the
15:56
a b and c pecks that want to kind of
15:58
come back to you know wherever they have
16:00
been sitting for a long time or if you
16:02
use a heat gun you can get an a to
16:04
straighten out a little bit but a little
16:06
bit easier to wrangle sure right well
16:08
and i've seen with your standard a b or
16:11
c pex as it heats up it'll really start
16:14
to move it'll start to change shape
16:16
where the the pexel packs will tend to
16:19
hold that better
16:21
yeah that linear expansion yeah it just
16:24
doesn't move around quite as much
16:27
with that metallic layer sandwich
16:29
between the two polymer layers right
16:32
the only time i think i remember using
16:35
Pexel pex in the field was with wood
16:37
boiler applications
16:39
yeah yeah yeah we would insulate it and
16:42
bury it and then run it through the
16:43
basement wall and uh and then hook up to
16:46
it from there and then one of the things
16:47
that collect the offers that i think is
16:49
really helpful is a wrench to get to
16:52
that manifold connection so when you've
16:53
got
16:54
our system in our manifold we have that
16:56
specific wrench that allows you to get
16:58
in between those ports because the idea
17:00
is to make the manifold as uh you know
17:02
narrow as possible so it's not 10 feet
17:05
wide took up 10 different loops of pipe
17:07
do you guys want to talk about some of
17:09
the recommendations with that
17:11
the wrench or the mounting bracket or
17:12
any of that install stuff that you
17:14
probably get phone calls for yeah i mean
17:17
we we do get questions about you know is
17:19
there a special wrench do you offer one
17:21
and you just alluded to it that yeah we
17:24
we have a special wrench it helps you
17:26
get in in between the ports a lot easier
17:28
than using
17:29
like a an adjustable wrench like most of
17:32
us have in our tackle our tackle box
17:35
greg's still thinking about fishing
17:37
clearly
17:41
yeah no it's nice in those tighter
17:43
applications that you can get in there
17:45
and and get it tightened up and make
17:46
sure you're not going to have a leak
17:48
it's easier than getting a channel locks
17:50
or adjustable in there how tight is too
17:53
tight what do you guys recommend for
17:54
that i don't know if i've ever had that
17:56
question to be quite honest with you
17:58
most the guys it's it's funny you ask
18:01
that because i i don't think i've ever
18:03
had you don't have to over tighten it
18:05
doesn't take much to torque that down no
18:07
you know the o-ring is what yeah the
18:08
ceiling and that's the i think it's a
18:11
good thing to stress too that this isn't
18:13
an npt connection that you could you
18:15
know go a full
18:16
additional rotation or something like
18:18
that that as soon as you start to feel
18:20
some resistance you know i don't know
18:22
that quarter turn past that or something
18:24
like that in the check for a week but
18:25
there's no again no bonus points for for
18:28
crushing that o-ring in there to the
18:29
point that it doesn't work anymore right
18:31
no and
18:32
i don't think i've ever had i think i've
18:34
had one person call with with a fitting
18:36
leak and it i think it was because they
18:38
either over-tightened it or they were
18:39
missing the o-ring all together that
18:41
fitting is chamfered so the inside of
18:43
the manifold's got a chamfer in it the
18:45
fitting itself has a chamfer on it to
18:48
hold that that o-ring and once it gets
18:51
in there it kind of fills the void i
18:53
don't want to say it's difficult to
18:55
crush that i mean you'd have to be
18:57
really reefing on it pretty hard to to
18:59
crush that over and then
19:01
right yeah the key is just don't don't
19:03
over tighten it i remember they have to
19:04
be in the field you take it up you'll
19:06
hand tighten
19:08
just torque it you don't have to really
19:09
get in there and crush it down no so you
19:12
guys probably get a lot of
19:13
troubleshooting stories and what are
19:15
some of the the weird cases that have
19:17
come up that you've helped customers
19:19
work through with manifold
19:21
i think one of the biggest ones is upon
19:23
install
19:25
uh
19:26
how do i pressure test this this
19:27
manifold of yours if it's a 663 or 668
19:30
s1 they all have the air vents on them
19:33
so they'll go and pressurize it with air
19:36
and immediately it's leaking out of
19:39
of the air vent right so then we get the
19:41
phone call hey what do i do
19:44
you know can i just pull this well you
19:46
can but hey we sent a goodie bag with
19:49
these little black caps in there
19:52
the bummer is is half the time the caps
19:54
get thrown away on the job so we do
19:56
offer replacement caps for that yeah but
19:58
you will with every manifold you will
20:00
get a set of black caps that you can
20:02
remove that hydroscopic cap off the top
20:04
of the air vent you can screw that black
20:06
cap on for pressure testing so those
20:07
those do come with our manifolds um one
20:10
question i get a lot is about zoning
20:12
using a manifold a lot of contractors or
20:16
out there will you install
20:18
packs for maybe a master bedroom and
20:20
bathroom and then the customer comes
20:22
back and they want to zone the two
20:24
independently and if you have your pecs
20:25
set up properly
20:27
we have thermoelectric actuators that
20:30
you can put onto our manifolds that
20:31
allow you to separate the different
20:33
circuits on the manifold into a zone so
20:36
sure i mean you could zone every circuit
20:38
i mean it might be getting a little
20:40
tough with with flow requirements but
20:42
you know say you have a an area split up
20:45
and you want to take you know two or
20:46
three of the circuits or maybe for the
20:48
kitchen and
20:49
you know
20:50
four of the circuits are for the living
20:52
room you could separate those with
20:54
thermoelectric actuators and thermostats
20:56
to be able to do zoning right through
20:57
the manifold right and it'll work great
21:00
with uh almost any zone panel but we'd
21:02
like to tell you to use our zvr panel if
21:05
necessary and that's a good one too that
21:08
is kind of a
21:09
conceptual question is how small is too
21:11
small for an independent zone so every
21:14
once in a while someone will want to do
21:17
just a you know a radiator towel warmer
21:20
in a bathroom on its own separate zone
21:23
um so the you know from a flow
21:26
standpoint it's not really an issue
21:28
we're going to be able to open and close
21:29
that actuator like we're not the problem
21:31
there one of the things i would
21:32
recommend
21:33
is that you see what the smallest turn
21:36
down uh your boiler if you're using a
21:38
boiler or whatever equipment you're
21:39
using is going to be so if you've got a
21:42
boiler that's only going to turn down to
21:43
10 000 btus per hour uh and you've got a
21:46
500 btu
21:48
towel warmer know that that could short
21:51
a short cycle your boiler all year if
21:54
that turned out pretty warm right so
21:56
that's one thing um to be careful of
21:58
some people will have a little buffer
22:00
tank so the towel warmer can sip off of
22:02
that instead of firing a boiler every
22:04
time
22:05
but something that's a good practice is
22:08
just see is that going to be way smaller
22:10
than the you know the smallest
22:13
fire rate that my boiler is going to be
22:15
able to stay on for for more than 15
22:17
minutes and if so you might lobby to
22:19
keep the master bedroom and the master
22:21
bathroom on the same circuit but
22:24
from the manifold side you can mix and
22:26
match however you want there right yeah
22:28
you have the capability but you're right
22:30
you you always want to take into account
22:32
what that minimum turn down ratio is of
22:34
your boiler so that you protect that
22:35
boiler from short cycling or take or
22:38
take precautions like you said with the
22:40
buffer tank that's a good option to
22:43
to protect that small zone or protect
22:45
the boiler in that small zone
22:46
application right i think another good
22:48
question that we get a lot is hey i have
22:51
this manifold installed everything
22:54
pressure tested out fine
22:56
we're running the system through its
22:58
paces and i got one zone that just is
23:00
not heating there's no flow through it
23:03
what do i have to sounds like you need
23:04
to do a little purging problem got it
23:07
got it probably got some air bound up in
23:09
that in that manifold or in that in that
23:12
pack circuit sometimes the guy will even
23:14
kind of fire back and go well you know i
23:16
went through and purged this whole
23:17
system you know i don't know how that
23:19
can be there's got to be something stuck
23:21
well if there is something stuck
23:23
what's nice about our manifold is you
23:24
can remove on the supply and the return
23:27
you can remove both cartridges the
23:28
isolation shutoff and the balancing side
23:31
of it
23:32
yeah one thing i always like to do when
23:34
i was purging a manifold is you know i
23:36
always like to go through and you know
23:37
i'd initially get you know open the open
23:41
the ball valve and get the water flowing
23:42
through it but then i would go through
23:44
and i'd close all but one and just purge
23:46
each loop individually right really well
23:49
yeah so that you know i knew that i had
23:52
each circuit purged out the air separate
23:54
or the air vents are going to do a good
23:56
job after it's in service and the water
23:58
starts to heat up and that air starts to
23:59
migrate out but
24:01
upon startup i really like to purge each
24:03
circuit individually sure well it's
24:05
tricky because you almost need two
24:06
different pumps but the pump that you'd
24:09
use for normal operation
24:11
with all zones open is not going to hit
24:13
a great velocity to purge so that's why
24:16
if you close it down to all but one uh
24:19
you might hit a higher you know closer
24:21
to 10 feet per second that's going to
24:23
help carry some of those you know those
24:26
pockets of water all the way through
24:28
where it just isn't moving fast enough
24:30
to purge it
24:31
you know one foot per second through a
24:34
manifold didn't take you forever to get
24:35
the air to the system so reducing the
24:38
you know the size of the orifice
24:39
basically helps increase the velocity to
24:42
move that through better i'm glad you
24:43
just touched on that because that's
24:45
where i was going to head next yeah
24:46
sorry i saw your no
24:50
you kind of read my mind a little bit
24:52
so that's another question we get well
24:54
how should i purge this
24:56
do i go from the from the primary side
24:58
from the boiler can't i just use that
25:00
pump and it's typically a homeowner or a
25:02
guy that doesn't have a second pump and
25:04
set a hoses in a bucket
25:06
or
25:07
should you purge through
25:09
the purge valves that we put on this
25:11
underneath the air vents on the ends of
25:13
these manifolds
25:15
i always recommend if you have the
25:17
ability to go through the purge points
25:20
supply and return on the manifold valve
25:22
off from the boiler side and and do it
25:25
that route it's it's going to go a lot
25:27
faster to max's point the primary pump
25:29
doesn't have enough giddy up go to purge
25:32
all those loops at once and we would
25:33
still tell you purge it one loop at a
25:36
time right
25:37
yeah i always used to use the purge
25:39
points on the manifold to purge it yeah
25:41
it just works better sure does yeah and
25:43
that way you can even you know into a
25:45
bucket or something you can get a much
25:47
uh different pump
25:48
that's going to hit those velocities
25:50
better too and just really purge your
25:52
manifold
25:53
you know into a bucket or whatever
25:55
really well then you can start to see
25:56
when it's coming back with big you know
25:59
chunks of air basically where it you
26:01
know sputtering and then it's kind of
26:03
milky and then it's nice and clear then
26:04
you're ready to move on to the next
26:07
drop of the manifold it's a good spot to
26:09
connect our hydro flush cart yeah it is
26:11
that thing is fantastic certainly is
26:14
well what if you were in a situation
26:15
where you really didn't know maybe there
26:18
was a blockage someplace how would you
26:20
find that blockage in the concrete i
26:21
think you have to beg or borrow but not
26:25
steal
26:26
for an infrared camera right it doesn't
26:29
come down
26:30
in price so much that that's not like a
26:32
thirty thousand dollar investment
26:33
anymore you can get the little handheld
26:35
ones that fit on your cell phone or
26:37
something for a couple hundred bucks and
26:39
it will pay for itself if it saves you a
26:41
half a day of trying to you know scratch
26:43
your head figuring out that there's just
26:45
a leak or a block or you can you know
26:47
walk around the house and in five
26:49
minutes get an idea for which zones are
26:51
coming up temperature and which ones are
26:52
still ice cold it just is a
26:55
troubleshooting
26:56
tool that's well worth the investment it
26:58
sure is i actually did a job one time
27:00
with the route panel system on and it
27:03
was a main floor and the whole main
27:04
floor of the home had a basement below
27:06
it but we did a route panel extruded
27:08
aluminum floor system
27:10
and i was filling the system and it was
27:13
leaking leaking into the basement and
27:15
now remember that panel is sandwiched
27:18
sandwiched between the subfloor and the
27:20
finished wood floor
27:23
and we actually used the thermal imaging
27:24
camera and went in there and i i found i
27:28
could see the water start to come out of
27:29
the packs and i put a
27:31
piece of tape axe over the spot and wood
27:34
floor guy came in and he pulled it out
27:36
and it was right there with that thermal
27:37
jimmy can't that was directly over that
27:40
nail one of the things that i heard i
27:42
think it was from a dandelion article a
27:44
long time ago they used to
27:46
just release a cat into the space and
27:49
then they would come back later and see
27:51
where the cat like laid down because
27:53
they always find the warm spot
27:55
um i don't know it seemed a little less
27:58
scientific but maybe yeah in the early
28:00
days of the radiant uh that was the only
28:03
way to go but yeah the thermal imaging
28:05
camera is going to save you some time
28:06
there
28:08
and it eats less than your
28:10
than your um
28:12
your diagnostic cat that's in your van
28:15
yeah just the idea of like buffing
28:17
around a cat or like locking it in a
28:19
single room seems like it'd be a very
28:21
long game to play
28:23
dan had a cat in his work truck once
28:26
yeah i did but i didn't
28:28
i didn't put it there
28:29
it wasn't mike yet
28:32
yeah i i think we covered this yeah i
28:34
think we covered it pretty good well
28:35
yeah thanks again for having me guys and
28:37
uh if uh if you have any other text
28:40
related topics that come in through the
28:42
the phone lines or whatever we can pick
28:44
it up some other time or talk
28:45
specifically about plumbing if that's
28:47
helpful but again thanks for having me
28:50
on the show yeah we appreciate it thanks
28:52
for being on max thank you yeah
28:56
thank you for tuning in
28:58
if you ever need help please feel free
29:00
to contact our tech support team anytime
29:03
at techsupport.us
29:06
calefi.com
29:07
or call us during our business hours at
29:10
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29:13
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29:15
at 414-238-2360
29:21
[Music]
29:35
you