#6 "The path of least resistance." Do I really need a balancing valve?

Episode 6: Understanding the concepts of balancing a multi-circuit hydronic or domestic hot water system is easier when you know how different balancing valves work and where to apply them. Greg and Dan make it easy.

Want to hear YOUR QUESTION on Ask Caleffi, take this quick 4 question survey for your chance to hear your question in a future episode.

Survey:
https://forms.gle/fRfnU8Px3B1Lq7K69

Transcript

[00:00:05.400] - Greg Tubbs

Welcome to the podcast that dives into real life problems that plumbing and HVAC technicians face in the field, we're your hosts from the Caleffi Tech Support Team. I'm Greg Tubbs.

[00:00:17.040] - Dan Firkus

And I'm Dan Firkus. Welcome. We look forward to sharing some stories from our tech calls and using our background and expertize to make your days a little easier.

[00:00:30.170] - Greg Tubbs

Welcome back. Here we are, Episode six, we're talking about balancing.

[00:00:36.650] - Dan Firkus

Yeah, there's some excitement. Yeah, there is. Yeah, we get a lot of questions about balancing valves.

[00:00:41.780] - Greg Tubbs

We do get a lot of questions. And I think one of the most common questions is if a guy knows he needs to balance the system, what kind of balancing valve should I use? Right. Yeah, and it always depends, doesn't it?

[00:00:55.640] - Dan Firkus

Does. I mean, there's no wrong answer. Definitely not. There's different different answers for that question. There's really no wrong answer.

[00:01:04.010] - Greg Tubbs

Yeah. I mean, really, we got to go down the road of finding out what the application is if you're doing hydroponic heating or if you're doing domestic hot water research.

[00:01:12.800] - Dan Firkus

Yeah, exactly. The other question I get a lot is, do I really need a balancing? Well, yeah. Or why do I need a balance on you and I both came from a heating background. And let's be honest, we didn't do a whole lot of balancing when it came to like baseboards radiators. But when we did in floor tubing, you know, when we did manifolds, those would get barrels because you had no reason not to.

[00:01:36.380] - Dan Firkus

You had balancing valves right there on the mat. Right.

[00:01:39.050] - Dan Firkus

Right. Exactly. Yeah. But when you look at, you know, do I need balancing valves or don't I? You got to remember, water is going to take the path of least resistance.

[00:01:48.110] - Greg Tubbs

Always does. It's lazy. It does what it wants.

[00:01:50.690] - Dan Firkus

Exactly. So you look at domestic hot water system with multiple branches and circuits. I mean, not uncommon with improperly balanced or a system with no balancing to have dead legs in the building, you know, places where Legionella can grow. It's just not efficient.

[00:02:08.570] - Greg Tubbs

Well, and it makes sense to even if we look at a hydroponic heating system, say it's a baseboard system and you have closer baseboards that, you know, if they're not all run in one big series loop. Right. If they're parallel piped off of a loop, then that's where balancing could be a huge benefit. Right?

[00:02:27.980] - Dan Firkus

That's where it's really important. It's very important.

[00:02:30.650] - Dan Firkus

You could have a short run in a small baseboard, you know, getting all the flow and you have a longer run or maybe a circuit for a living room or or bedroom with maybe a couple of baseboards in it. And you're not getting flow there. Right. All running through a short closed circuit.

[00:02:47.390] - Greg Tubbs

Yeah, I mean, I, I had a house that way where the master bedroom was the last on the loop. And because it was piped in series one big series loop, it was always the coldest water. Right. So it took forever for that to warm up. Right.

[00:03:01.040] - Dan Firkus

So if you, if they had parallel piped in and balanced it, you could efficiently heat all of the space. Absolutely. And you wouldn't lose all your all your to use before you got to that. So, yeah. So that I mean that's really the big purpose for, for balancing is to ensure that the water goes where it needs to go.

[00:03:19.730] - Greg Tubbs

Yeah. And unfortunately, as we said, balancing is always neglected or overlooked. Is it important.

[00:03:26.480] - Dan Firkus

Absolutely right. Could be one of your biggest callbacks is an unbalanced system. And if you didn't put those valves in your wish, you had. So, yeah, now we can talk about the different kinds of balancing valve. You know, we got manual, which are a pressure dependent, static type valve. We have pressure, independent and automatic dynamic valve or thermostatic with our thermal center. That's a thermostatic valve.

[00:03:52.250] - Greg Tubbs

Right. All these have a place or maybe even you're just comfortable with one particular type of valve, right?

[00:03:58.220] - Dan Firkus

Well, and maybe with the exception of thermostatic, automatic or manual will both can both fit the same application you'll given, you know, your exact design. I mean, there's going to be specifics that are going to determine whether whether you're going to go manual or thermostatic. But when you look at the manual valves, you know, that's the pressure dependent static valves. Those are going to be the valves with that require the most setup they are because you got to set them up.

[00:04:27.260] - Dan Firkus

Basically, you'll set one move on to the next, you know, depending on how many circuits you have. But say you have twenty circuits, you're probably going to go end up going back and forth in between them, because every time you adjust a manual valve, it's that one setting. And when you're setting it at one setting, you're allowing more push to another, another circuit. And as you get that balance down, then you increase your yeah, well, being pressure dependent and they're dependent on the pressure behind them.

[00:04:56.360] - Dan Firkus

So as you make changes down the line, you're going to change that pressure, which is going to change your differential pressure, which is going to change your flow rates. So it takes a little bit more fine-tuning to balance the system with manual really commonly chosen. They've been around for decades. They're the most inexpensive. They fit hydraulic or plumbing applications.

[00:05:17.390] - Greg Tubbs

Right. They don't they don't have moving parts in them. They don't have a moving cartridge. It floats or anything like that.

[00:05:23.240] - Dan Firkus

Right. Right. They're there. They're pre adjusted. Well, not pre adjusted. They're adjusted on site. Right. I mean, they require, like you mentioned, the most amount of effort to set up, and it's going to require you to have the flow characteristic chart for the valve, and those are valve specific. I mean, you could have a number of different balancing valves in your system, you know, and you're going to need a flow characteristic chart for each of the models.

[00:05:49.090] - Dan Firkus

So, you know, it's really tough for a balancing crew to come in and make sure that they have the right information and they're using it at the right time.

[00:05:56.500] - Greg Tubbs

Right. And all of those characteristics are on a flow chart that comes with our products. Right. The forty two or the one thirty, those are the most commonly used, at least out of that family in our product or the one thirty two. Thirty two. But those have a flow characteristic chart that you can go through the product literature and find that that chart and the balancing guy has to follow that chart and, and, and there'll be a defined chart for the half inch versus the three quarter, one inch or all the way up to two inch.

[00:06:26.680] - Greg Tubbs

Right. It's going to require a tool in need manometer or pressure differential gauge pressure, differential meter to be able to read that and make the adjustments accordingly.

[00:06:36.790] - Dan Firkus

Yeah, you'll use that and get your Delta P your pressure differential across the valve. You know, that'll give you your pressure drop. You take that back to your flow characteristic chart and then you'll have to watch your your meter and your chart to get your differential pressure to map design flow rate. That's going to be the indicator of what the flow rate is going right for them.

[00:06:58.870] - Greg Tubbs

And typically that's a subcontractor that comes in and that's all he does is balancing, unless you're blessed enough to have the tools and the knowledge and certifications to do system balancing.

[00:07:10.000] - Dan Firkus

Yeah, there is a lot of actually jurisdictions or municipalities that require you to bring in a third party balancing contractor. So, you know, you think about that. That saves money up front on the balancing ball. But then if you have to bring that third party contractor in, there's some additional cost in and scheduling there. Right. Be certain municipalities won't even allow the installer to put to balance the system. Right.

[00:07:33.720] - Greg Tubbs

So pay me now or pay me later. Right. You still get a there is a cost to it and you look at, you know, down the line, if you ever add on to that system with the manual balancing valve, you may have to rebalance that entire system. To do that, you might have to change a pump. You might have to change some piping. And you can do that to get the increased flow rate that you need.

[00:07:55.750] - Greg Tubbs

But then when it comes to balancing it, you may have to go back to each independent balancing valve and make adjustments to to add for that.

[00:08:03.940] - Greg Tubbs

No doubt you're definitely having to go back and do all that.

[00:08:07.870] - Dan Firkus

But we simplify that.

[00:08:09.160] - Greg Tubbs

We did simplify that. I really like the one thirty two quick Sutter product too. I mean, you go in, you have your system all hooked up, you pull the pin, you make the adjustment on the ball valve and set it to where you need it and drop the pin and you can easily go back and forth between them to get everything dialed in without hooking up a meter to it. Right.

[00:08:33.640] - Dan Firkus

Yeah, it has the bypass or the you know, the the pressure parts like the one forty two or one thirty series. So it has that. But instead of requiring the manometer to check your differential pressure, it has that flow meter built right on to it. Right. Like Greg said, you, you, you want to size the valves so that your flow rate is somewhere in the middle of the flow gauge. Also if you have three to 10 one inch valve and lo meter, you're going to want to make sure that you're putting that into a system that's, you know, maybe four to eight p.m..

[00:09:09.320] - Dan Firkus

Right. You're adjusting somewhere in the middle. That's where you get your most accuracy, right?

[00:09:13.300] - Greg Tubbs

You want you want to be in the middle. It's going to be better than operating at the bottom end or the top end of that valve, right?

[00:09:19.720] - Dan Firkus

Yeah. I mean, if you're putting in a if you're wanting nine p.m. and it's a 10 GPM flow meter, you might be better off to go up to an inch and a quarter where you're now you're working more in the middle. You're going to be more accurate.

[00:09:30.280] - Greg Tubbs

Sure. And, you know, if it's going in a one inch line, you can always push it down from the one and a quarter body to a one inch pipe.

[00:09:37.900] - Dan Firkus

Absolutely. You put those in in any direction, Gary, just about any direction. As long as the flow direction is correct. And we really don't want to see you install it where the flow meter is facing down. Reason being that flow meter bypass will act as a sediment trap. So if you have, you know, anything in the water sand.

correction great just about any direction as long as the flow direction is correct and we really don't want to see you install it where the flow meters facing down a reason being that flow meter bypass will act as a sediment

so if you have anything in the water sand and you kind of debris i mean i've actually gotten some of these back where there's been magnetite stuck in themhard to believe but a little little shreds of red

right so solder yeah i mean it's not it's approved to be installed that way but i mean you certainly run a higher risk of beginnings some debris right now and we have a real good way of cleaning it out i mean you can disconnect

that's what meter and and do a flush on it due to clean it out if need be yeah it's easy enough to do that you know the benefit with that is in the future if you've ever have to add a circuit you know ensuring that your your pump and your flow rate and piping is is capable of hand

the additional circuit it's really easy to to set that up and you can go back down the line pull a pin on any of the bells behind it check the flow rate make adjustments if you need to you don't need to bring in a third party contractor or any additional tools it's

really simple right makes life easy certainly doesso from them we go to the automatic pressure independent dynamic balancing valves those have moving parts

you do typically it's a cartridge i'm with with a spring in it scott an a a flow indication in it that you know it's size accordingly it sides in a pressure differential range right you decide and and those you need

you need to be more accurate in your calculations because you're ordering those based on a on a preset flow rate it's yeah it's specified so the engineer will specify in in the blueprint what exactly

flow right so your order that you know like the r one twenty seven locales are available as low as point three five g p hammers highest ten gallons per minute and then you order it specifically at us that flow rate and as long as you're within a set pressure difference

it's all for that flow rate it will maintain that evenly yeah im the flow rate may change a little bit of the pressure differential gets above or below the chart but once you're in that pressure differential it rule

that spring will regulate the flow through it and right tina said p pm exactly it's it's it's opening and closing that ah that characterized opening in that cartridge yeah so i mean easy to install really no set up no no set up very

z mean not much flavor at all we will have people ask us you know can p t ports be installed not on the valve body itself but i have seen companies actually put petey ports before and after because again some younis a require

even though it's indicated in certified that it is what we are saying it is the i don't want to check it and that gives you the ability to do that yep i'm nice thing about them is you know if you ever do need to make a change

something to your system i'm you can order a new cartridges are you can order a an additional cartridge epithet flurry you need but then if you find something changes you can order a replacement full cartridge right and just swap the cartridge out inside of the

body to change the floor it right it's real simple it makes it so much easier if one does get broken or one gets clogged up because the water quality is really poor it's a very serviceable item yeah it is easy replacement

so from there i'm i'm kind of excited about this is we're going to talk about the thermos static yeah or one sixteen thermal satyr yeah i i don't know why i'm so excited about that one but other than it's different kind of problem so

cases the temperature solution for a temperature problem as certainly as at their most addicts so basically what you'll do is you'll set what you want your temperature of your research returned to be and this it this is it

only approved for domestic applications this is not rated for and hydrostatic application now you would you wouldn't use it in the hydraulic application right but essentially you're going to set your design temperature lock the knob in place so that it can't be changed

and install it and again you can you can adjusted in place or you can preset it and install it and then what that balance going to do with it it's going to modulate the flow rate based on the temperature right that does that with a little wax filled temperature sensitive ball

that's it expands and contracts just like in a thermos static mixing valve opens and closes to allow a water flowing through a to achieve that that temperature setting whether it's one ten or one twenty once it achieves

then it closes down as far as it can and then it'll leno all that water in the system to move on right now garrettit'll slow down to a real minimal real slow flow it's always moving water past it and it has to do to continue to cent stamp

you're right to write it gets down to point to three c v i believe it does on the and smaller yeah so it just lets a trickle through it does not close off a hundred percent right right and what's really nice about that is it works really well with the variable drive pump

a to be pump by throttling up and down it's going to allow you know him you think of think of a building with six circuits in it and sixth are most setters you owe your first one's gonna come up to temperature of the quickest you know initially they'll all be

as far as they can go your own path of least resistance typically is going to be your closest circuits though as that one comes up to temperature it's going to restrict flow and then the flow is going to go out to the remaining right and then the next one's going to close and it's going to go out to the next

remaining and it's going to do that until all the loops are satisfied so you'll you'll look it a variable drive delta be palm you know you can once once all the circuits are satisfied and you're at minimum flow that pumps going to throttle back down

really do really provide some energy savings right yeah wants to get set loop up to temperature or that that riser that particular area up to temperature just throttles down and like you said it's doing what it needs to do with

allowing water to move onto the next leg right yeah i mean it just changes the path of least resistance until all of them are are even inconsistent eliminating dead legs or or colder cold risers sure well i

sync we did a pretty good job of covering the types of elves here and and gave some pretty good information yeah you know i look at all of our valves or service them all all of them can be maintained you know they any like any product you know they will in time requiring

yes because water quality has an effect on anything you know our thermostat static bypassed or thermos addict grounds that we just talked about we do have replaceable cartridges for now i'm so easy to rebuild those in place if you need to if you have a harsh water quality

and we have a couple of different models to i mean if you're doing thermal disinfection we have a model that two models that will work for that one one as a thermostat a bypass cartridge in it for when it gets up to temp for thermal they're more shocking accident

it'll it'll do that manually but then we also offer another model that you can attach one of our of thermal heat motors too and that can be hooked to a building management system right it'll up and that bypass cartridge at a set time

based on your your management system absolutely well yeah so you can still get thermal disinfection with that it's pretty cool well yeah so next week we're going to talk about backs will prevent others yeah why's that back will prevent or dripping that's a

the question i get all the time yeah so stay tuned we'll talk about that thank you for tuning in if you ever need help please feel free to contact our tech support team any time passes tech support stop us at collect feedback

or call us during our business hours seven thirty am for thirty pm central timefour one four two three eight two three six zero