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Ask Caleffi
#4 What do your Mom and a hydronic system have in common?
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Episode 4 focuses on the importance of having magnetic technology built into dirt separators. Highly efficient "dirt" removal, including both non-ferrous and ferrous (magnetic), is critical to protect today's high-efficiency heat exchangers and circulators. Caleffi is the North American market leader in magnetic dirt removal technology.
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[Music]
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welcome to ask Caleffi
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the podcast that dives into real life
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problems that plumbing and hvac
00:10
technicians face in the field
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we're your hosts from the caleffi tech
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support team i'm greg tubbs
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and i'm dan firkus welcome we look
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forward to sharing some stories from our
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tech
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calls and using our background and
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expertise to make your days a little
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easier
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[Music]
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hey there welcome back we're going to
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continue on the train
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of separation yeah we're going to keep
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it separated
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that's right so this week we're talking
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dirt separators
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yeah dirt and magnetic awesome so
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what is it what does it do how does it
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work we're gonna dive into that
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right now yeah we are you know what
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you're gonna see is
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that in a way it's pretty similar to
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that air separator we talked about last
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week
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that's right basically we're taking a
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air separator and
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turning it upside down you're no longer
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venting air or
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separating air right we're trying to
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pull other things out of fluid
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right exactly so you know you're going
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to take that same
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similar i won't say same i'll say
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similar
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large-bodied multi-pass device turning
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it upside down
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having the coalescing mesh in inside
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and as a multi-pass device it's going to
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knock the dirt and debris from the water
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as it passes through it
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that's right yeah so it's got a very
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small pressure drop
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across the vessel right that's because
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of that large body
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right it's very negligible it was a lot
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like that air separator last week with
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the large body your velocity drop
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so essentially there's low to no
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pressure drop right and
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we do list cvs in our literature but
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honestly
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pretty much could ignore it in your head
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loss calculations there's guys that
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won't though they always want
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every little detail and you can do that
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you can do that but i think you know you
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do that enough times you're going to
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find that it's so negligible that
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you'll probably stop doing it right and
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we got to remember every time we're
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talking
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a separator of any kind it is a
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multi-pass device right
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is that similar to a y strainer greg not
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at all
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we we definitely know that y strainers
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are more restrictive
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and those are typically a one passed
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filter type device
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right right and those those you will
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tend to get more of a pressure drop
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through as they start to collect dirt
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and debris because
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they don't have that large body right
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they'll plug up where
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a separator unless the system is really
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dirty separator
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should not plug up no not if you're
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doing your maintenance properly
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right yeah i mean you're gonna find that
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you know if you're working with a dirty
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system and you install a
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dirt or magnetic separator
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it's not gonna may not be an annual
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maintenance thing to start with you
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might be back once a once a day once a
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week
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maybe down to once a month and then
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hopefully working it out to where you're
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you're out there doing annual
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maintenance and and doing a flush on
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them
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absolutely but we always recommend if
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you know for a fact that the system is
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very dirty to begin
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with before you install one of these we
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would always recommend that you do a
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power flush on the system
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flush and clean flush and clean and then
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install this and then do your water
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testing and then add inhibitors as
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needed
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right right absolutely then you can use
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this to just
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finish cleaning up the system and then
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maintain it
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sure but say you know a contractor
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didn't do all that
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can these be taken apart to clean out if
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they're that bad they can
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i mean you're gonna find that you're
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coming in and doing the annual
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maintenance and we're going to talk more
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about that as we
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as we get into this they're pretty easy
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to clean out but
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they are you can disassemble them and
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pull the pull the coalescing mesh out at
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least in smaller brass models and clean
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that
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yeah and obviously our steel ones we
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can't do that because that's an all
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welded body
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right they don't have removable heads on
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those unlike some other manufacturers
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typically if it's that bad though i mean
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again we would say hey
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probably not a bad idea to power flush
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the system right yeah do a flush and
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clean
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yep you talk about the different sizes
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you know like the separators we talked
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about last week you know we have our
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smaller brass models anywhere from
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you know three-quarter up to two inch
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um and then steel models from two inch
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all the way up to
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14 inch yeah that's a big separator
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huge body and all those models come
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magnetic or non-magnetic
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right right yeah they do with the
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magnetic models i mean
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the smaller brass ones will be a clip-on
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magnet the larger steel ones will be
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you know and insert it magnet into an
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insert inserted into a well
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that's right and we're going to go back
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and kind of
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beat this little subject in the head
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again these are not for potable water
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absolutely not nope not for potable at
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all we get that question
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quite a bit too about removing scale and
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debris from potable water systems and
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you know no they're not low lead they're
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designed for
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a closed-loop hydronic system hydronic
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or chilled water
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hydronic or chilled water only closed
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loop
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and potable water systems
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you know they're not multi-pass systems
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you know if you're looking to get rid of
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debris out of a potable water system
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we're always going to tell you look at a
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filter
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absolutely yeah that that's absolutely
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the way to go
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so we talk about magnetic separators
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greg you know did you realize who the
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first
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one in north america was to introduce
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magnetic separation
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well from what i understand it's calefi
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it's us it is us
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yep so a lot of manufacturers out there
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were the first ones to bring that to the
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north america market
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yeah i mean many manufacturers don't do
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both
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no no they don't so how do these things
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work
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well they work pretty similar to that
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air separator they reduce the velocity
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they slow down the fluid
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passing through the coalescing mesh
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which allows that that mesh to knock the
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dirt and debris loose
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that dirt and debris will fall down into
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the bottom of
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the separator the magnetic portion when
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you have the magnetic separation that'll
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pull out very fine
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magnetite right and then the mesh in
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these
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so when we're talking our smaller brass
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ones those are glass reinforced nylon
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and then when we step to the commercial
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steel units
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those have the stainless steel yeah yeah
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they do
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and those will have a larger ball valve
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on the bottom for cleaning
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so i mean we do have a discharge port on
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on the bottom of all of our separators
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for cleaning and
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you know that's something that when
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you're out doing you'll typically shut a
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pump off
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to you know drop the pressure in the
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system or and then do a downward flush
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on
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sure right after you remove the magnet
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and none of our magnets are a wetted
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magnet
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these uh the larger commercial ones are
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a bayonet that goes into the bottom of
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the
06:54
of the body the smaller brass ones are
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like you said before they're a magnetic
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band that goes around you would pull
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that off and then do the flush
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yeah that'll clip right onto the body
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what's interesting is our larger
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separators you know will actually have
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up to three
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magnets inserted into the bottom yes
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that's a lot of a lot of grabbing power
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certainly is so what about installing
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these things
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i mean you have any tips for for the
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guys out there yeah i always like to put
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them on the return side of the system
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you know if i can put them in right
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before the boiler
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and i know i'm protecting the boiler
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heat exchanger you know
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again you want to make sure that you're
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going to be in line
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piped in line so that you get that good
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velocity drop as that water passes
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through it
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absolutely and that's protecting the
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boiler you know
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catching the majority of the debris on
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the first couple passes
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and keeping it out of those smaller
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passageways and some of these
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you know very restrictive heat
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exchangers right there
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yeah absolutely you know you look at
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that magnetite that's almost like a
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black sludge or tar
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in the system sand yeah by almost like a
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sand right
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and it's awful on uh variable speed
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pumps
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yeah that's kind of where my mind was
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going you talk about the variable speed
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pumps and the variable speed drives have
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little magnets
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within the drive so if you don't have
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some type of magnetic separation in your
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system
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that pump will do that so that pump's
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going to suck that magnetite in so you
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if you have uh
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you know if you find you're going out to
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a system and you're replacing these
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variable speed drives
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and you're consistently having to do
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that and you don't
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you don't have magnetic separation that
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most likely that
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there you have a lot of magnetite in the
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system that's getting drawn into that
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to the magnets of that pump causing
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premature failures
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right it'll lock it tight yeah
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absolutely i think
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almost any variable speed pump
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manufacturer out there will recommend
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that you have the magnetic separation to
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protect the pumps
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right well how about flow direction we
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get that question an awful lot about
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just about everything we sell and
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honestly
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it doesn't know the difference right
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it's an open barrel inside
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right absolutely with being an open
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barrel it's passed through so it doesn't
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matter what direction the flow is going
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that coalescing mesh is going to
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separate that
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the dirt debris and magnetite is going
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to be drawn down to the bottom
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your gravity is what's pulling that down
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and the fact that the velocity drops
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so much within that body it allows the
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those particles to fall to the bottom
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right
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the only thing the only product i think
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that we have that it does really making
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a
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have an effect on is that that rotating
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collar model
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that na 5465 right that one with the
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poly
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body that one has an in and out it does
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and well that's a vertical device it's a
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vertical but it can
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be turned as it'll be horizontal
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horizontal too if you've got a really
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small
09:53
system yeah thing to remember with those
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like the vertical air separators we
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talked about last week
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lower flow capacities only up to about
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10 gallons per minute
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sure sure so and again that's because
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that one is not a direct
10:07
um a direct pass-through device
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sure so from installation
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to now maintenance i mean we walk people
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through a maintenance procedure all the
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time on these don't we
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we do the key to anything is going to be
10:22
maintenance so you want to make sure
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that you get the system cleaned up
10:25
and then you're able to put it on a
10:27
maintenance cycle sure
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typically when when a guy wants to know
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how to blow one of these off
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we're gonna tell them hey man you gotta
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turn off the pumps
10:36
make sure the system is just sitting at
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rest you know make sure all the
10:39
this is gonna make sure all the magnetic
10:41
material doesn't go back into the system
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when you pull the magnets
10:45
because a little suction from the pump
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can pull up the finer debris yeah it can
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well especially once you pull that
10:50
magnet out and you release that
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yep pull the magnet and then you're able
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to
10:56
open that drain valve yeah you open that
10:58
drain valve you do a downward flush
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and generally recommend continuing to
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let it flush
11:04
for about 10 to 20 seconds after you see
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clear fluid coming out
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and you know you have that purged out
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sure then you can close up the valve and
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and fire up the pumps again right put it
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back in service
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certainly so i got another question for
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you greg there
11:19
you know most of our air sorry our dirt
11:22
separators
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have either a plug in the top or a stem
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with a cap off the top
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what's the purpose of that that's a
11:29
great question
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i've seen plenty of contractors will
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actually add an additional
11:34
air vent on them right because they have
11:37
the the coalescing mesh in there yes
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it's removing
11:40
dirt but it will also catch any
11:44
air bubbles coming in so it's like a
11:46
secondary air removal
11:47
right nice yeah the smaller brass ones
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have a half inch
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female mpt connection where you can put
11:53
one of our
11:54
our mini keller valcal you know half
11:56
inch right air vents on top
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and you know you get a little bit a
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little bit of additional air separation
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certainly can and then those larger
12:04
commercial units those have a
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three-quarter
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piece of stand pipe off the top that's
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threaded and
12:10
that big 502 air vent max cal
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yep the 501 502 max cal i've seen people
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put that pink
12:17
that thing on there as a secondary i
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don't think you can ever have
12:20
enough air vents in this system no it
12:22
know properly
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yep i agree you know you're going to
12:25
have an air separator on the
12:27
the supply side you're going to have a
12:28
dirt separator on the return
12:30
side you're going to have air vents
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within the system why not throw an air
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vent on top of that dirt separator and
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get a little bit of additional air
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removal
12:38
well and i think probably the last
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question we could ask here is
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how often how often do we have to
12:45
purge this system i mean we get that
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question a lot too
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and like anything else it depends on how
12:52
dirty the system is
12:53
right yeah that's really what is going
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to determine how often you clean it
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i mentioned it a little earlier you may
12:59
find that you initially put it in and
13:02
you're you know you're back once a week
13:04
to purge it and then maybe
13:06
once a month and then maybe six months
13:08
and then
13:09
i mean i think the overall goal would be
13:12
to get the system cleaned up to where
13:14
you you're purging it with your annual
13:17
maintenance
13:18
exactly so it becomes part of your
13:20
annual maintenance procedure
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i think that pretty well covers it you
13:23
know we asked all the questions
13:25
next week we're going to finish off
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separation with
13:29
hydraulics operators awesome i'm look
13:31
i'm looking forward to that one
13:33
yeah so tune in next week we're going to
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talk hydraulic separation
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thanks for tuning in thank you thank you
13:40
for tuning in
13:41
if you ever need help please feel free
13:43
to contact our tech support team
13:45
anytime at techsupport.you
13:49
calefi.com or call us during our
13:52
business hours
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at 7 30 am to 4 30 pm
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central time at 414
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238
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